Bengals Related News & Notes

[Bengals1]

Don't look now, Alex Redmond is back....

[https://www.cincyjungle.com/2020/9/21/2 ... tice-squad]

[Bengals1]

Interesting read...

[https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2020/0 ... drew-luck/]

[TheBurn]

Interesting read...

[https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2020/0 ... drew-luck/]

woah... interesting indeed

[stripesincarolina]

At this point I think you could put every single one of us in a meeting with SoP and the coaching staff and we could state the obvious points from the article. But the unknown remains to be WHY they continue to persist with this approach. This isnt a Joe Burrow or 2020 thing. This has been an experiment for years now. Talent evaluation for Olineman clearly sucks. Coaching Olineman clearly sucks. Coaching strategy to help Olineman isnt great. This isnt even a direct indictment of SoP. Its systemic. Somewhere in the bowels of PBS there is a weak link on player evaluation and it needs to be fixed.

Radical change is needed asap.

[Exile]

At this point I think you could put every single one of us in a meeting with SoP and the coaching staff and we could state the obvious points from the article. But the unknown remains to be WHY they continue to persist with this approach. This isnt a Joe Burrow or 2020 thing. This has been an experiment for years now. Talent evaluation for Olineman clearly sucks. Coaching Olineman clearly sucks. Coaching strategy to help Olineman isnt great. This isnt even a direct indictment of SoP. Its systemic. Somewhere in the bowels of PBS there is a weak link on player evaluation and it needs to be fixed.

Radical change is needed asap.

I'm not disagreeing with you, Stripes, but I think it's worth noting that this is a problem across the league. It seems like we've been hearing for years about how most teams are struggling to put together a decent line. I did a little googling and found a couple articles that offer some insight into what's going on:

From Nov. 2017 on a site called The Ringer, they identify three factors:
1) Spread offense in college: predominance of up-tempo offenses mean linemen are not learning the skills of an NFL lineman (often lining up in 2-point stance vs. 3-point; defensive players barely have time to line-up, are often quickly tired, and so are not using the variety of pass-rush moves that linemen will see in the NFL)
2) Collective Bargaining Agreement: fewer practices, particularly fewer contact practices and two-a-days especially hurts linemen more than other players.
3) More and more amazing physical specimens on defensive lines, meaning instead of 1 or 2 good pass rushers, many teams have 3 or 4. So at the same time that o-linemen are coming into the league with poorer skills, you've got all these dominant pass rushers in the league (not so much here, but you know, around the league).

There was also an article from The Athletic from Dec 2018, about college lineman recruiting, and basically colleges are just really bad at evaluating high school talent at this position and potential at the next level. One problem: it’s a very technical position. Another: bigger isn’t necessarily better, because you have these 300-pound high school kids, they get injured a lot, knee problems, and become less athletic, fail to develop. Have to be tough, smart, and athletic—tough combo to find--not to mention a certain size.

That doesn't excuse our coaches. These are the facts that all teams are dealing with--you've either got to pay for the top-notch linemen who are out there or you have to figure out how to coach guys up, given that they may not have the skills already. And probably you have to do some of both.

[Bengals1]

Okay, I've been racking my brain the past few days trying to recall the name of the O-lineman that fell so far in last April's draft.

It seems to me he came out of a school that began with a M. Like Memphis or Missouri etc...

He was considered one of the top 5 Tackles I believe and fell to like the 4th or 5th round. Never heard why he fell either. Every round the scroll at the bottom of the TV would have best remaining players and his name was always first on the list round after round.

Many of us here kept rooting for the Bengals to take him but of course, they never did.

Mag, this is your forte'.....

[MeatHeadbengal]

From Nov. 2017 on a site called The Ringer, they identify three factors:
1) Spread offense in college: predominance of up-tempo offenses mean linemen are not learning the skills of an NFL lineman (often lining up in 2-point stance vs. 3-point; defensive players barely have time to line-up, are often quickly tired, and so are not using the variety of pass-rush moves that linemen will see in the NFL)
2) Collective Bargaining Agreement: fewer practices, particularly fewer contact practices and two-a-days especially hurts linemen more than other players.

I'm going to push back on the first point there because it's 100% Bullshit!

As a linemen myself and as a coach getting lots of opportunity to attend the Mushroom clinic in Cinci and speaking with NFL coaches that spread offense line not learning the skills is just plain BS. 2 point and 3 point stance there is no difference, you need to focus on 3 things; Feet, Hands, Hips. The step is always first then the hand placement and hips. Those three things over and over again every coach works on.

Talking about Pass Rush moves they are all the same but I'm sure at the NFL level those guys are much more refined in their moves.

To be honest though I think you're second point the collective bargaining is much more to blame not giving the players enough practice time to be able to refine their techniques and go against live pass pro drills. This isn't something you are just good out of the box, there's a lot of timing punches and footwork that's involved. I noticed this a lot of Bobby Hart, his punch isn't timed very well but when it is he's not bad. Problem is the DLmen is getting into his body which causes all the problems.

That's just my 2 cents.

[stripesincarolina]

I hear you Exile and Meat, but how does a team like the Patriots have a top notch Oline consistently for over a decade?? They have rotated personnel, they have changed OCs and seem to be able to protect the QB for hours. It just seems to me we are always underprepared and lacking talent in the face a wave of high draft picks and FA opportunities. On the other hand the Patriots have taken a group of journeymen and made them look like monsters. So frustrating.

[Exile]

From Nov. 2017 on a site called The Ringer, they identify three factors:
1) Spread offense in college: predominance of up-tempo offenses mean linemen are not learning the skills of an NFL lineman (often lining up in 2-point stance vs. 3-point; defensive players barely have time to line-up, are often quickly tired, and so are not using the variety of pass-rush moves that linemen will see in the NFL)
2) Collective Bargaining Agreement: fewer practices, particularly fewer contact practices and two-a-days especially hurts linemen more than other players.

I'm going to push back on the first point there because it's 100% Bullshit!

As a linemen myself and as a coach getting lots of opportunity to attend the Mushroom clinic in Cinci and speaking with NFL coaches that spread offense line not learning the skills is just plain BS. 2 point and 3 point stance there is no difference, you need to focus on 3 things; Feet, Hands, Hips. The step is always first then the hand placement and hips. Those three things over and over again every coach works on.

Talking about Pass Rush moves they are all the same but I'm sure at the NFL level those guys are much more refined in their moves.

To be honest though I think you're second point the collective bargaining is much more to blame not giving the players enough practice time to be able to refine their techniques and go against live pass pro drills. This isn't something you are just good out of the box, there's a lot of timing punches and footwork that's involved. I noticed this a lot of Bobby Hart, his punch isn't timed very well but when it is he's not bad. Problem is the DLmen is getting into his body which causes all the problems.

That's just my 2 cents.

Thanks for chiming in Meat--I was hoping you would, because you're much closer to the ground on this than any of the rest of us. It makes sense to me that you're probably right about the CBA changes to practice being the biggest driver--less time for guys to practice technique and develop cohesiveness.

I want to dig deeper with a couple follow-up questions, and as I looked back at the first article, I pulled this out:

The college game has started to move at such a rapid pace that it can barely resemble the sport played in the NFL. In January’s national championship game, for example, Clemson beat Alabama by running a whopping 99 plays from scrimmage; in last week’s thrilling 41-38 victory against the Texans, the Seahawks ran just 64. This trend has stunted the progression of linemen from a technical standpoint—guys in spread offenses constantly line up in a two-point stance, almost regardless of the situation—and, more crucially, it’s eliminated the complexity that’s long been inherent to line play. By operating at such a ridiculously fast clip, college offenses have negated the importance of the blockers up front making specific identifications and picking up intricate blitzes, which are skills that continue to be vital in the pros.

“If you’re running a spread offense in the college game, almost nothing translates to the NFL,” former NFL offensive linemen and current SiriusXM and SB Nation analyst Geoff Schwartz says. “You’re running at such a high tempo that teams aren’t going to twist and blitz because you’re moving so fast. Defenders are so tired.”

First, I think it corrects what I was saying, not so much about 2-point stance vs. 3-point stance but the linemen not having to make the same reads. By the way, that seems to be one of the things that made 5-wide sets more effective for Burrow, right? That it simplified things for the linemen?

But second, I was wondering if it might be that more up-tempo offense, whether it's a spread offense or not, might be encouraging bad habits and ingraining them into players.

[Exile]

I hear you Exile and Meat, but how does a team like the Patriots have a top notch Oline consistently for over a decade?? They have rotated personnel, they have changed OCs and seem to be able to protect the QB for hours. It just seems to me we are always underprepared and lacking talent in the face a wave of high draft picks and FA opportunities. On the other hand the Patriots have taken a group of journeymen and made them look like monsters. So frustrating.

Well, I think it's probably a case where it just accentuates the differences between the haves and the have-nots. It's personnel getting the right people in there and it's coaches--both the line coaches and the offensive coaches--who are able to develop players, work with what they have, and scheme around that. If a team looks like they're taking scrubs and turning them into diamonds, it's probably because they're good at developing players or their personnel department is good at finding guys with untapped potential or guys who fit what they're trying to do. We all know what a joke Cincinnati's scouting department is, wouldn't be surprised if that's part of our problem. Is Jim Turner a good coach? You'd think so based on his resume, but you could say the same thing about Paul Alexander, who wasn't getting it done at the end of his tenure and didn't do much in Dallas either.