Players Kneeling

Talk NFL or college football here. Go Bengals!

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby 4256 Hits » September 25th, 2017, 8:47 am

skycruiser wrote:As a consumer of the NFL's product, fans have every right to stop consuming the product if they're that butthurt about somebody exercising their first amendment rights


Just so you are clear the 1st amendment protects them from prosecution (I have not heard one person saying they should be arrested). It doesn't protect them from their employer disciplining them. An employer has every legal right to put a stop them doing this and if they refuse they can punish them up to and including firing them. There are a number of stories out there of people being fired for what they post on facebook on there own time. They are free to say what they want but an employer doesn't have to keep them employed.

I think we can all agree this is not good for the NFL business.
4256 Hits
 
Posts: 907
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 8:42 pm
Location: Findlay

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby Exile » September 25th, 2017, 8:59 am

My father was an army veteran, and he instilled in me the importance of reverence for our country and for the symbols of that nation, especially including the flag. Growing up, one of the men I admired the most in my community was a WWII vet--he was a leader in my church, a teacher that I had in elementary and middle school, and the announcer at our home football games, who proudly sang along with the national anthem as loudly and proudly as he could every time it was played. I was involved in scouting, where all of these lessons were reinforced, and I spent a year raising and lowering the flag at my school, ensuring that it never touched the ground and was folded properly and given due respect. I still carry those lessons with me today, I still love our country and its flag, I have a lot of friends who are veterans and I support our troops. If I was an NFL player and wanted to draw greater attention to an issue, sitting or kneeling during the national anthem is not how I would go about it.

All that said, I can respect Kaepernick and the other players who are exercising their 1st amendment rights in this way. He's smart enough that he had to have known that he was risking his career to take this stand, and I think it's pretty clear that it has cost him dearly. Say what you want about his skills, I think we all know that he would at least be on a roster somewhere if he had never done this, and he might well be starting somewhere and making the money that goes along with that. And at the same time that he has a right to protest, you guys and every other fan who's upset by this have every right to boycott games, or threaten to boycott games, or refuse to buy his jersey (or to burn his jersey) or whatever. Ultimately, the strong feelings that he's evoked are the reason why he's not playing right now, the fear that people will vote with their wallets, that it would be too costly to whatever team brought him on. As Hits said, employers have that right, too. Personally, I wouldn't boycott the team if they brought in Kaep or if some of our players joined in the protest. I still follow this team despite drafting Joe Mixon, who hit a woman; I still follow this team despite all the knuckleheads we've had through the years who have done stupid and/or illegal shit. I don't necessarily expect pro athletes to be role models, but I would consider Colin Kaepernick--a man who stood up for what he believed in despite the costs and who in all other ways has lived a morally upright life--to be a better role model than a lot of other NFL players.

So anyway, there's my $.02.
Image
User avatar
Exile
 
Posts: 906
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 11:29 am

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby skycruiser » September 25th, 2017, 9:04 am

4256 Hits wrote:
skycruiser wrote:As a consumer of the NFL's product, fans have every right to stop consuming the product if they're that butthurt about somebody exercising their first amendment rights


Just so you are clear the 1st amendment protects them from prosecution (I have not heard one person saying they should be arrested). It doesn't protect them from their employer disciplining them. An employer has every legal right to put a stop them doing this and if they refuse they can punish them up to and including firing them. There are a number of stories out there of people being fired for what they post on facebook on there own time. They are free to say what they want but an employer doesn't have to keep them employed.

I think we can all agree this is not good for the NFL business.


Oh, I'm clear, thanks. I'm also completely clear that their employer seems to have 0 problems with what they're doing. Not only are they in NO danger of getting fired, for the first time ever goodell, the owners and the union seem fully aligned on a topic

I would disagree that it's bad business. The on-field product has been horrible the first 2 weeks but the NFL is dominating the news cycle. The very, very small minority of people "quitting" the NFL will likely be back. The lack of offensive production the first 3 weeks is worse for business than the kneeling
User avatar
skycruiser
 
Posts: 2314
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 5:46 pm
Location: Parts Unknown

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby skycruiser » September 25th, 2017, 9:05 am

Exile wrote:My father was an army veteran, and he instilled in me the importance of reverence for our country and for the symbols of that nation, especially including the flag. Growing up, one of the men I admired the most in my community was a WWII vet--he was a leader in my church, a teacher that I had in elementary and middle school, and the announcer at our home football games, who proudly sang along with the national anthem as loudly and proudly as he could every time it was played. I was involved in scouting, where all of these lessons were reinforced, and I spent a year raising and lowering the flag at my school, ensuring that it never touched the ground and was folded properly and given due respect. I still carry those lessons with me today, I still love our country and its flag, I have a lot of friends who are veterans and I support our troops. If I was an NFL player and wanted to draw greater attention to an issue, sitting or kneeling during the national anthem is not how I would go about it.

All that said, I can respect Kaepernick and the other players who are exercising their 1st amendment rights in this way. He's smart enough that he had to have known that he was risking his career to take this stand, and I think it's pretty clear that it has cost him dearly. Say what you want about his skills, I think we all know that he would at least be on a roster somewhere if he had never done this, and he might well be starting somewhere and making the money that goes along with that. And at the same time that he has a right to protest, you guys and every other fan who's upset by this have every right to boycott games, or threaten to boycott games, or refuse to buy his jersey (or to burn his jersey) or whatever. Ultimately, the strong feelings that he's evoked are the reason why he's not playing right now, the fear that people will vote with their wallets, that it would be too costly to whatever team brought him on. As Hits said, employers have that right, too. Personally, I wouldn't boycott the team if they brought in Kaep or if some of our players joined in the protest. I still follow this team despite drafting Joe Mixon, who hit a woman; I still follow this team despite all the knuckleheads we've had through the years who have done stupid and/or illegal shit. I don't necessarily expect pro athletes to be role models, but I would consider Colin Kaepernick--a man who stood up for what he believed in despite the costs and who in all other ways has lived a morally upright life--to be a better role model than a lot of other NFL players.

So anyway, there's my $.02.


very well said, Exile!
User avatar
skycruiser
 
Posts: 2314
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 5:46 pm
Location: Parts Unknown

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby Deadcat » September 25th, 2017, 10:23 am

In my opinion, this has gone too far. At first Kap wanted to draw attention to an issue. It never needed to be more than that but some reporter wanting something to write about chose to exaggerate it. Kap was trying to get attention for his girlfriend's organization. I'm not sure he knew what he was kneeling for and probably still doesn't. And honestly, when Kap failed to vote he lost all respect I have for his issue or opinion on it. You have an American right to vote for change and you chose to sit it out. That's bullshit!

I was at the Seahawks vs. Titans game yesterday. Neither team came out of the locker room following the lead of the Steelers. To me, that was incredibly disrespectful and worthy of a fan boycott. As several people have said, the NFL needs to stay out of politics and as an employer should keep their employees out of politics during work hours. I can't go spouting my opinions in a format that suggests my company feels the same. NFL Players should do the same. Another point is sports has always been an escape from politics. When Kennedy was shot. When America was at war. Sports has always allowed fans a few hours where they can watch something and enjoy the problems going on in the world. The NFL has given that escape up and is bringing our daily problems into what used to be our escape. To me, this whole thing is poor management from the top of the NFL. Not surprising Goodell has screwed this up too. He has mismanaged the NFL's public relations since he's been in power, from Ray Rice to CTI to this. The NFL continues to look bad. Throw a nasty strike on top, which is coming, and the NFL is going to implode.

And by the way, who's talking about Kap's issue anymore. The discussion has been overtaken by the protest itself and not any issue it's supposed to draw attention to. IMO, players should be reminding everyone why they are protesting instead of finding new and better ways to be seen as protestors.
Image
User avatar
Deadcat
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 2:58 pm

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby skycruiser » September 25th, 2017, 11:14 am

good points, DC. I hear ya man!

speaking of CTE...there were 2 huge CTE stories last week but somehow those got lost in the shuffle....hmmm
User avatar
skycruiser
 
Posts: 2314
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 5:46 pm
Location: Parts Unknown

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby Jmble » September 25th, 2017, 11:47 am

Here's my two cents.

Every time a military vet chimes in on the subject, they say they fought for your right to stand OR sit.

The military has stood with the right to stand or sit. Who are we to say you're dishonoring the vets when the vets think they are doing exactly what they fought for the right for?

Everybody knows they aren't protesting the flag or the anthem.

This is a stupid controversy. We should be talking about the reason they are kneeling. That is a true discussion to have. Not whether or not these people are disrespecting the Country.

If I could kneel beside them I would. I respect the people who stand. I respect the teams who showed unity one way or the other. You have a right to stand during the Anthem. You have a right to sit during the Anthem. This whole damn country was founded on those rights.

This only became as big an issue as it is today because of 45 and his stupid ass baby tweets and rants. Tweeting about Sports and the Ratings for the Grammys and calling a professional athlete a Son of a Bitch when Puerto Rico is essentially under water, an entire island with no electricity. Kaep is a son of a bitch, but those Nazis are very fine people. Fuck 45!

Kaep hasn't even complained. He's now donated $900,000 our of a million he's pledged to donate. JJ Watt got his own segments on the news for raising money for Houston. People just complain Kaep is doing it for the publicity. Who cares? Starting a foundation to help the needy and donating a million dollars is a Hell of a lot better than doing shirtless push ups in his driveway and complaining to the media every day that he doesn't get a job.

I'm worked up here!
Jmble
 
Posts: 1812
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 2:19 pm

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby Bengals1 » September 25th, 2017, 11:58 am

Moving beyond the issue itself I agree the NFL is going to have to do something, set a policy or a rule, something....and damn soon too. Ratings were up yesterday mostly on the Presidents comments and people wanting to see what would happen. But the trend since Kap first took a knee and it became an issue has been trending downward for the league. At some point, when the owners really begin to feel it in their wallets, they'll demand Beavis do something.

My guess? and it's just pure speculation at this point, is that Beavis will set a policy that if you're going to come out onto the field while the Nat'l Anthem is being played you must stand. Otherwise, teams or individual players not wishing to stand must remain in the locker room till the Anthem is done being played. The optics aren't nearly as bad to have a handful of players where the fans and the announcers can't see them.

And for everyone about to remind me of the 1st Amendment and individual rights keep in mind Major League Baseball regulates how high a player can wear their socks and what style of mustache they can have. When you're in the employ of an agency like the NFL the league sets the policy, if they say stand or stay inside where you can't be seen the courts will uphold it. Remember when then Commissioner Rozell fined Jim McMahon for wearing an inappropriate headband on MNF?

That's my guess where this is going anyway....
Image
User avatar
Bengals1
 
Posts: 5788
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 2:20 pm
Location: Hollywood, Ca.

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby Jmble » September 25th, 2017, 12:46 pm

Bengals1 wrote:Moving beyond the issue itself I agree the NFL is going to have to do something, set a policy or a rule, something....and damn soon too. Ratings were up yesterday mostly on the Presidents comments and people wanting to see what would happen. But the trend since Kap first took a knee and it became an issue has been trending downward for the league. At some point, when the owners really begin to feel it in their wallets, they'll demand Beavis do something.

My guess? and it's just pure speculation at this point, is that Beavis will set a policy that if you're going to come out onto the field while the Nat'l Anthem is being played you must stand. Otherwise, teams or individual players not wishing to stand must remain in the locker room till the Anthem is done being played. The optics aren't nearly as bad to have a handful of players where the fans and the announcers can't see them.

And for everyone about to remind me of the 1st Amendment and individual rights keep in mind Major League Baseball regulates how high a player can wear their socks and what style of mustache they can have. When you're in the employ of an agency like the NFL the league sets the policy, if they say stand or stay inside where you can't be seen the courts will uphold it. Remember when then Commissioner Rozell fined Jim McMahon for wearing an inappropriate headband on MNF?

That's my guess where this is going anyway....


The NFL already has a rule about it. The rule is that all players must be on the field and standing for the Anthem. I completely agree that they are breaking NFL rules and they should be fined by the NFL for breaking NFL rules. But, that's what comes with protesting and they should accept whatever consequence their protest may bring. Protesting and being arrested has gone hand in hand since the beginning of time. Now they aren't breaking any laws, but if the NFL feels they should be punished, then so be it. I won't complain about that.
Jmble
 
Posts: 1812
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 2:19 pm

Re: Players Kneeling

Postby Jmble » September 25th, 2017, 12:48 pm

Here is the NFL rule. I have not fact checked this, so if it's somebody making something up I apologize, but it seems like it's legit.

The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the league rulebook. It states:
“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.
“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.” ........
Jmble
 
Posts: 1812
Joined: January 10th, 2012, 2:19 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Football

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron